perire_animus (perire_animus) wrote in rorschach_fans,
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Rorschach's Journal: Misconceptions about Rorscach


I started this because a discussion some where else came up and I thought it would be better to continue it here instead, so that we are not clogging up the other topic that had nothing to do with it.

These misconceptions on Rorschach/Walter Kovacs has been bothering me for quite awhile and I decided it is best to start a topic on it and read what others have to say on their views on Rorschach and explain why they believe that. I personally feel that there is A LOT of misconceptions about him that are not true. One example, him being a misogynist, which of course I totally disagree. I will repost said discussions so that everyone knows where the started discussion is all about. In my comments you will see my views and disagreement on one of the person's comment.

I am not here to start a flame war and I am wanting to discuss this in a respectable and intelligent way without trouble. I enjoy a good debate.

anonymous: ".....He's a misogynist due to having a terrible mother and the only relationship I can see him having with a woman is toleration. Friendship might be possible, but it will take a way long time to reach that point. Romance, completely impossible....."

perire_animus: "I'm sorry but Rorschach is not a misogynist. Where does it say in the GN that he is? He doesn't like whores and women who are just as bad and guilty of wrong as any other criminal. He may be awkward around women but he does not hate or disrespect them. Yes, he may have a negative view on women who are whores/prostitutes, etc. because of his mother but that wouldn't lead him to dislike all women that are actually good women. Withdrawn and shy around them but not hate them altogether."

anonymous: "Actually, it is possible to hate women and like individual women. I actually know a woman who hates men, but has made an acception for men she considers her friends. However, Rorschach is not capable of being in a romantic relationship and he would feel threatened if any woman tried to impose one on him, considering the fact that he despises all aspects of sex and sexuality. If you create an OC who's purpose is to be in a romantic relationship with him, you have created a Mary-Sue."

perire_animus: "He hates criminals and the immoral - weather they happen to be men or women is irrelavent. You see Rorshach being mean to a woman and percieves him to dislike women in general. In reality, Rorshach is being mean to a criminal or immoral person, independant of that person's gender. It would be sexist to assume he hates women. He treats immoral and criminal men worse."

anonymous: "Yes, but he happens to feel less comfortable around women due to his mother being screwed up, which is how many men in the world become misogynists. Hating women does not mean you wish to see all women harmed. It could just mean that you want nothing to do with women, and Rorschach clearly fits this category. One could argue that Rorschach seems to have some respect for Laurie, but he doesn't speak to her unless he has to. In fact, he usually ignores her presence in favor of the men. Maybe I'm just using big words to sound impressive, but the fact still stands that he is not fond of women. However, there are women who are not fond of men that exist in this world and by saying that Rorschach does not dislike women, you're saying that it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to hate men, but not the other way around. By the way, I'm sure I'm not sexist because I'm a woman. Plus I once reported a disgusting fanfic that completely degraded women and personally send the guy a PM that said if he ever posted that shit again, I would personally report him.

True, he is harsher with male villains, but tough men like Rorschach usually don't attack women brutally. True, the Blair Roche case did affect him simply because he was disgusted that a human could sink so low. I have to admit, when he killed the guy, I applauded. Maybe he's not exactly a misogynist, but he will not have anything to do with a woman, unless he has to. In the video game, The End Is Nigh, there is a scene where Dr. Manhattan and Silk Spectre arrive and he completely ignores Silk Spectre's presence, conversing with Dr. Manhattan. This behavior is consistent with his treatment of Laurie in the graphic novel."
anonymous: "I never said that he hated women, he just doesn't like them. The fact that he seems to ignore Laurie's presence (the only woman he's seen around) unless he has to acknowledge her could lead one to logically conclude that Rorschach prefers the company of men to women."

perire_animus: "You don't seem to even know what hate means - you said that it could be just wanting nothing to do with them - then you say that you never even said he hates women. Also, many men becoming that has nothing to do with Rorshach - this is about him, not men in general. You are starting to sound quite sexist by the way. (not meaning to sound disrespectful)

Also, I never said Rorschach wants to see all women harmed. But in fairness, he is more harsh with male villians than women villains. Take note that (figuring out what happened to Blair Roche) he cuffed Gerald Anthony Grice and poured kerosene throughout the house and sets it on fire and stood outside, watching the house burn to the ground for an hour. (in revenge for a GIRL) Besides the point, I am discussing the point of Rorschach and his stand with women in general as him being a misogynist which he is not, in my opinion."

anonymous: "Maybe I'm just using big words to sound impressive, but the fact still stands that he is not fond of women. However, there are women who are not fond of men that exist in this world and by saying that Rorschach does not dislike women, you're saying that it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to hate men, but not the other way around. By the way, I'm sure I'm not sexist because I'm a woman. Plus I once reported a disgusting fanfic that completely degraded women and personally send the guy a PM that said if he ever posted that shit again, I would personally report him.

True, he is harsher with male villains, but tough men like Rorschach usually don't attack women brutally. True, the Blair Roche case did affect him simply because he was disgusted that a human could sink so low. I have to admit, when he killed the guy, I applauded. Maybe he's not exactly a misogynist, but he will not have anything to do with a woman, unless he has to. In the video game, The End Is Nigh, there is a scene where Dr. Manhattan and Silk Spectre arrive and he completely ignores Silk Spectre's presence, conversing with Dr. Manhattan. This behavior is consistent with his treatment of Laurie in the graphic novel."

perire_animus: "First of all, I NEVER said that "it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to hate men but not the other way around."! Where you got that I don't know but you clearly didn't understand where I was coming from. And just cause you're a woman removes you from being a sexist? Ridiculous...

From what it sounds like to me, you think he's a mysogynist because of how he is around Silk Spectre - who dressess and acts like a slut! So what? That's not wrong - he isn't mean to her he avoids her because he finds her behavior immoral not because she is a woman. Am I correct? From how I percieve it, he wants nothing to do with certain people, regardless of gender. There are specific people, like silk spectre, that he does not like - but his reasons for each one go well above and beyond merely their gender. In the silk spectre example, he dislikes her because of the way she dresses and behaves (like a slut) not because of her gender. Her behavior is a reminder to him of how morally corrupt society is, so he avoids her. But also there is him being withdrawn and only talks when it is necissary. He is like that with everyone. Yes he is awkward around women and is shy but that doesn't mean he wants nothing to do with a woman. He acts that way with EVERYONE.

His sexuality is another matter, he does not despise all aspects of sex and sexuality. Only when it is immoral - examples would be prostitution (sex for money), sluty behavior (irresponsible sex), fornication (premarital sex), adulterous behavior (Breaking a vow of monagamy), rape (forced sex), pornagraphy (sex for money), and so on. None of these things has anything to do with intimacy, love, or a romantic relationship. To me, he seems to be a romantic in a sense. He seems very much capable to care and love someone but he is awkward about it and doesn't seem to know how to express his emotions and feelings. I'm not saying Rorschach will flat out be with a woman and live happily ever after so easily. It is actually very possible if he met the right person but it's not very likely. That is my views on that.

Kudos for reporting the degrading fanfic author, but it is only a fanfic. Some fanfics are usually supposed to be messed up like that - its a fictional story that may not represent what the author feels about real life. But that doesn't prove anything on the fact of you not being a sexist because of this event. What you said proves that you are a sexist because you think you are exempt from something (from being a sexist) because of your gender. And that is the exact definition of a sexist. One who thinks that they get special privliges because of their gender."

carnageincminor: "If I can chip in my two cents, I think Rorschach has a certain degree of prejudice towards women in that he views them through the virgin/whore dichotomy lens. He calls just about every woman a whore, and not just the ones who are actual prostitutes. He has very conservative standards for women which, in our modern post feminism society, would be considered pretty sexist. I mean, with Laurie, why is she a slut? She changes partners during the story, but she didn't cheat on Jon or anything, and there wasn't anything immoral in what she did. As for her costume, she said she doesn't really like it and it's more of a hand-me-down from her mother. She dresses normally otherwise. Laurie also expressed disgust at the idea of rape (which Rorschach coined "a moral lapse") and the porno comic Sally received, which she found degrading. Laurie isn't necessarily the most likeable character (I think she whines too much) but she doesn't deserve the label of slut. If she can be said to fall in the slut/whore category, that puts a large percentage of women in there and that's very prejudicial.

On the flip side, the fact that Rorschach has defended the honour of two females doesn't negate his prejudice. Blaire Roche and Kitty Genovese (his idealised version) are made out to be completely pure and innocent, and more to the point, weak. And that makes their murders look all the more heinous. Would it have had such an impact if it were a man who was killed while others looked on without doing anything?

I don't know if all that would qualify him for a misogynist but going back to the initial subject, it would be very, very unlikely for Rorschach to have any romantic connection with any female. Even the slightest hint of affection, no matter how genuine or well intentioned, would probably come across as whorish to him because he's got deep rooted issues and mistrust and ultra conservative standards."

anonymos: "Actually, you're sounding like the sexist one right here. Laurie did not choose to wear that skimpy outfit. Her mother wanted her to take her place, and Laurie has admitted that she hates that costume and wants a better one at the end of the comic book. Plus, most writers are male and tend to draw women in skimpy outfits for sex appeal. Even if Laurie chose to wear that outfit, it's her choice and Rorschach has no right to be the authority on how all women should dress and act. Misogynists believe that women shouldn't wear certain things because it makes them out to be whores or they treat women like sexual objects. Rorschach definitely applies to the former and, as much as I love Rorschach, he is not the authority on how all women should act or dress, and the fact that you think he is does it's not portraying you in a very flattering light.

No, I don't think I'm exempt from being sexist, it's just that I'm the same woman who wanted to tear the Twilight book series to shreds, because I couldn't stand its misogynistic views, and I get mad about misogyny when watching a Star Trek: TOS episode. I have to keep reminding myself over and over that it was created in the 60s. So you can see why I don't believe myself to be sexist."

perire_animus: "He doesn't want to tell Silk Spectre how to dress! He doesn't like it and therefore avoids it! He absloutely has the right to avoid something like that! And Star Trek TOS did more to end sexism and racism than any show that had ever come out before! You are clearly 'brittile' - a woman who sees misogyny and sexism everywhere she looks - even when its not there. I bet if I said "the statue of venus has no arms" you would accuse me of saying that all women are weak. Ridiculous.

I am just explaining how Rorschach sees things from what I view from him. That does not mean I am sexist! If Laurie didn't want to wear said outfit then why still bother? Cause it was her mothers? Besides the point, I personally don't care for her get up but if that is what she likes to wear then fine. And yes, I know comic artists have a tendency to put female super heroes in outfits that are skimpy and would not make any sense in wearing it when fighting crime, but that is the artists views not mine. Personally, it seems sluty but I'm not saying they are sluts. The part with Silk Spectre and me saying "a slut" is me explaining how Rorschach has viewed her, that is not my view and I'm sorry if I was not clear on that.

Now, this conversation is going way off topic here and will be discussing this somewhere else. I will open a new topic on this so we can continue this if you wish or if others want to chime in their two cents."

That is the discussion that brings us here now. Continue discussion.
Tags: general questions, graphic novel discussion, movie discussion
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